Partner, Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
Michael Edney defends executives and corporations in criminal prosecutions and agency enforcement actions, successfully challenging numerous regulatory agencies—from the Justice Department to the US Securities and Exchange Commission and the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission, among others—against federal government overreach. Many of the regulations Mike has convinced the courts to reverse would have arbitrarily ended hundreds of businesses absent the courts’ intervention. He has also successfully challenged government decisions to break contracts and end projects in cooperation with private industry.
In addition to his criminal defense practice, Mike regularly brings actions challenging government agency regulations as illegal and unconstitutional before they are enforced. He has sued government agencies and reversed their attempted regulations seeking to upend the energy, financial, and tobacco industries.
His civil litigation practice spans beyond anti-regulatory suits. He has brought some of the leading First Amendment cases in the country. On behalf of The Washington Free Beacon, he vindicated the publication’s First Amendment right to access sealed court records before the Arizona Supreme Court. He has defended corporations in bet-the-company litigation concerning securities, environmental, employment, and fair housing. He has represented states at the request of their governors. He has repeatedly served as counsel for former Attorneys General of the United States when they appear as amici curiae before the Supreme Court.
Mike also represents clients on numerous national security matters, including the Classified Information Procedures Act, the Foreign Agent Registration Act, matters before the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, government cybersecurity investigations into companies regarded as critical national infrastructure, the handling of classified information by government contractors, and prepublication review of books authored by former government officials for sensitive and classified information.
His private practice draws from a half decade of prior government service. During the administration of former President George W. Bush, he served as deputy legal advisor to the National Security Council at the White House and in the Office of Legal Counsel at the United States Department of Justice, where he helped the administration address many legal issues pertaining to the United States' post-9/11 campaign against terrorism.
Before joining Morgan Lewis, Mike was a litigation partner at another global law firm.
Non-Resident Senior Fellow, Reiss Center on Law and Security at NYU School of Law
Christopher Fonzone is a Non-Resident Senior Fellow at the Reiss Center on Law and Security at NYU School of Law. Fonzone served as the Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) at the Department of Justice from 2023 to 2025. OLC, by delegation from the Attorney General, provides written opinions and other legal advice to the President and all executive branch agencies on a wide range of issues, with a focus on matters of particular complexity or importance, including sensitive national security matters.
Fonzone previously held a number of other government roles. From 2021 to 2023, he was the General Counsel of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. During the Obama Administration, Fonzone was Deputy Assistant and Deputy Counsel to President Obama and the Legal Adviser to the National Security Council (NSC). And earlier in his career, Fonzone was Special Counsel to General Counsel of the Department of Defense and served in career roles at the Department of Justice, both at OLC and on the Civil Division’s Appellate Staff. Fonzone also served as a Member on the J. William Fulbright Foreign Scholarship Board from 2017 to 2019.
Outside of government, Fonzone is currently a Member of Anthropic’s National Security and Public Sector Advisory Council, where he supports the identification and development of AI applications that strengthen U.S. capabilities in key areas and assists in the development of industry-leading standards to promote a “race to the top” for responsible national security AI solutions. He was also the lead national security counsel to the Biden-Harris Transition, and a partner in Sidley Austin’s Privacy and Cybersecurity group, with a practice that focused on a wide range of issues related to information technology and cybersecurity.
Fonzone has lectured and taught classes on national security law at a variety of law schools, and his writing on national security and other legal topics has been published in a variety of forums, including the Washington Post, Newsweek, Lawfare, and Just Security.
Senior Legal Fellow, Courts and the Constitution, Legal Policy Center, The Heritage Foundation
Zack is a Senior Legal Fellow of Courts and the Constitution at The Heritage Foundation.
He previously served for several years as an Assistant United States Attorney in the Northern District of Florida. Prior to that, he spent two years as an associate in the Washington, D.C. office of Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton, which he joined after clerking for the Hon. Emmett R. Cox on the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit.
Smith received his undergraduate, master’s, and law degrees from the University of Florida. During law school, Smith served as the Editor in Chief of the Florida Law Review and served on the executive boards of several student organizations, including the UF Chapter of the Federalist Society.
Partner and Co-Chair of Securities & Regulatory Enforcement, Stradley Ronon
As a former supervisory assistant chief litigation counsel in the Enforcement Division of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), Jan Folena has led and successfully litigated many of the financial service industry’s most complex and high-profile cases. She has appeared in federal courts across the United States as lead trial counsel, handling issues at the forefront of the securities industry, including in one of only a few financial fraud jury trials, a highly publicized insider trading trial, and an enforcement action against the Big Four accounting firms.
As co-chair of Stradley Ronon’s securities and regulatory enforcement practice, Jan focuses her practice on assisting firms and individuals in navigating internal investigations, regulatory enforcement matters, commercial disputes and, when necessary, arbitration, mediation and trial. She regularly advises asset managers, broker-dealers, registered and private funds, public companies, officers, directors, principals and auditors on complex matters involving enforcement of federal and state securities laws, including regulatory examinations, internal investigations and litigation. Jan also represents clients in congressional inquiries, before state regulators, and in third-party litigation.
In her previous supervisory role at the SEC, Jan managed a team of trial lawyers and investigative staff while providing legal guidance and litigation risk assessment to the commission and SEC division heads. Jan was selected to serve as the first assistant chief litigation counsel to the SEC’s Asset Management Unit providing legal advice and serving as litigation counsel for cases brought under the Investment Company Act of 1940 and the Investment Advisers Act of 1940. Prior to joining the SEC, Jan served as chief trial counsel at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission and as trial counsel at the U.S. Department of Justice, Commercial Litigation Branch.
Jan’s expansive government career serves as the foundation for her substantial insights and firsthand knowledge into industry best practices and solutions for clients. She is frequently sought after for her sophisticated knowledge and understanding of federal securities laws, administrative procedure, federal and state court litigation, and enforcement actions at the SEC and other regulatory agencies.
Senior Litigation Counsel, New Civil Liberties Alliance
Peggy Little, Senior Counsel at New Civil Liberties Alliance, a new public interest law firm challenging the administrative state founded in 2017 by Professor Philip Hamburger, has over three decades of experience as a trial and appellate litigator in complex, high-stakes regulatory, mass-tort, class-action, products liability, securities, commercial and civil rights litigation representing individuals and high-profile litigants including Fortune 50 companies, financial institutions, public companies, and universities in state and federal courts, including the United States Supreme Court.
Peggy is a graduate of Yale College and Yale Law School, where she was awarded the Potter Stewart Prize. She was a law clerk to the Hon. Ralph K. Winter on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. Prior to starting her own trial and appellate law firm in 1997, where she was appellate consulting counsel to the New Haven firefighters in Ricci v.DeStefano, a landmark 2009 United States Supreme Court decision, Peggy was a partner at Tyler, Cooper & Alcorn in New Haven, Connecticut. From 2004 to early 2018, Peggy directed, part-time, the Federalist Society Pro Bono Center.
Peggy has participated in many national conferences and symposia addressing issues of current importance in constitutional law – specifically state and federal constitutional questions regarding the separation of powers and the first amendment – and regularly speaks, blogs and publishes on the topic of the unconstitutional exercise of governmental power. In May of 2017, she presented her paper, Pirates at the Parchment Gates, to a conference of state and federal judges at the Law and Economics Center at the Antonin Scalia Law School. Her work has been published by law reviews, legal publications, the Federalist Society, the Wall Street Journal, Law and Liberty and the Manhattan Institute.
Recent publications include: How the SEC silences its critics, The SEC should listen to Sen. Cotton, Lucia v. SEC, Opening Salvos in the Opioid Litigation Wars, Straight Dope on the Opioid Crisis
Executive Director, Milken Institute Center for Financial Markets
Michael S. Piwowar is the executive director of the Milken Institute Center for Financial Markets. Dr. Piwowar served as a Commissioner at the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission from August 15, 2013 to July 6, 2018. He was first appointed to the SEC by President Barack Obama and was designated Acting Chairman of the Commission by President Donald Trump from January 23, 2017 to May 4, 2017. He was previously the Republican chief economist for the U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs under Senators Mike Crapo (R-ID) and Richard Shelby (R-AL) and served as the lead Republican economist on the four SEC-related titles of the Dodd-Frank Act and the JOBS Act. During the financial crisis and its immediate aftermath, Dr. Piwowar served in a one-year fixed-term position at the White House as a senior economist at the President’s Council of Economic Advisers (CEA) in both the George W. Bush and Barack Obama Administrations. Before joining the White House, Dr. Piwowar worked as a Principal at the Securities Litigation and Consulting Group (SLCG). He received a B.A. in Foreign Service and International Politics from the Pennsylvania State University, an M.B.A. from Georgetown University, and a Ph.D. in Finance from the Pennsylvania State University.
Professor, Associate Dean for Faculty Research, Catholic University of America, Columbus School of Law
José Joel Alicea is the inaugural St. Robert Bellarmine Professor of Law, Associate Dean for Faculty Research, and Director of the Law School’s Center for the Constitution and the Catholic Intellectual Tradition. He has also served as a Visiting Professor at Duke Law School and Notre Dame Law School. Prior to joining the Catholic Law faculty, Professor Alicea practiced law for several years at the law firm of Cooper & Kirk, PLLC, where he specialized in constitutional litigation. He previously served as a law clerk for Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., on the United States Supreme Court and for Judge Diarmuid F. O'Scannlain on the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.
Professor Alicea’s scholarship has focused on constitutional theory. His scholarship has appeared, or is forthcoming, in the Yale Law Journal, the University of Pennsylvania Law Review, the Virginia Law Review, and the Notre Dame Law Review, among other publications. He has also been active in public debates about constitutional law, testifying before Congress and publishing essays in places like The New York Times, City Journal, and National Affairs.
Professor Alicea is a Fellow at the Columbus School of Law's Center for Religious Liberty and a Nonresident Fellow at The American Enterprise Institute. He is the recipient of several research and teaching awards, including the student-selected Professor of the Year teaching award.
David Lurton Massee, Jr., Professor of Law, Director, Immigration, Migration and Human Rights Program, The University of Virginia School of Law
Amanda Frost is the David Lurton Massee, Jr., Professor of Law and Co-Director of the Immigration, Migration and Human Rights Program at the University of Virginia School of Law. Professor Frost specializes in immigration and citizenship law, federal courts and jurisdiction, and judicial ethics. Professor Frost is the author of the book You Are Not American: Citizenship Stripping from Dred Scott and the Dreamers, which was shortlisted for the Mark Lynton History Prize and was named a "New & Noteworthy" book by the NY Times Book Review. Her scholarship has been cited by state and federal courts, and she has been invited to testify before the House and Senate Judiciary Committees. She has published essays and op-eds in the New York Times, The Atlantic, The New Republic, Slate, USA Today, and The American Prospect.
E. Claiborne Robins Distinguished Chair in Law, University of Richmond School of Law
Professor Kurt Lash teaches and writes about constitutional law. Founder and director of the Richmond Program on the American Constitution, Professor Lash has published widely on the subjects of constitutional law and constitutional history, including The Fourteenth Amendment and the Privileges or Immunities of American Citizenship (Cambridge University Press, 2014), The Lost History of the Ninth Amendment (Oxford University Press, 2009), and The American First Amendment in the Twenty-first Century: Cases and Materials(with William W. Van Alstyne) (5th ed., Foundation Press, 2014). An elected member of the American Law Institute, Professor Lash’s work has appeared in numerous legal journals including the Stanford Law Journal, Georgetown Law Journal, Virginia Law Review, andNotre Dame Law Review. He has been a visiting professor at Northwestern University School of Law and is the former director of the University of Illinois College of Law Program in Constitutional Theory, History, and Law.
David Boies Professor of Law, Yale Law School
Professor, University of Minnesota Law School
Ilan Wurman is the Julius E. Davis Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota, where he teaches administrative law and constitutional law. He previously taught at Arizona State University. He writes primarily on the Fourteenth Amendment, administrative law, separation of powers, and constitutionalism. His academic writing has appeared in the Yale Law Journal, the Stanford Law Review, the University of Chicago Law Review, the University of Pennsylvania Law Review, the Virginia Law Review, the Duke Law Journal, the Minnesota Law Review, the Notre Dame Law Review, and the Texas Law Review among other journals.
Professor Wurman is the author of the new book The Constitution of 1789: A New Introduction (Cambridge 2026). His previous books include A Debt Against the Living: An Introduction to Originalism (Cambridge 2017), and The Second Founding: An Introduction to the Fourteenth Amendment (Cambridge 2020). He is also the author of the casebook, Administrative Law Theory and Fundamentals: An Integrated Approach (Foundation Press 3d ed. 2025).
Professor Wurman practices law with the firm Tully Bailey. He has litigated a variety of administrative law and constitutional law cases, including cases involving COVID-19 restrictions, transmission lines, and Appointments Clause challenges. He also devised winning public nuisance theories to force city governments to address the increasingly challenging public camping crises throughout the country.
Deputy Counsel, the President
Gary currently is the Deputy Counsel to the President. He was previously a partner at the Dhillon Law Group and worked at the Department of the Interior and Federal Election Commission. He is a native of Virginia, and earned his B.A. and J.D. from the University of Virginia.
Director, Office of Government Information Services, United States National Archives and Records Administration
In December 2016, Alina M. Semo became the Director of the Office of Government Information Services (OGIS), the Federal Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) ombudsman’s office, which is part of the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).
Prior to joining OGIS, Ms. Semo served as the Director of Litigation in NARA's Office of General Counsel for two and a half years. Before coming to NARA, Ms. Semo led the FOIA Litigation Unit in the Office of the General Counsel at the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for over ten years, and also served as an Assistant General Counsel in the Litigation Branch for nearly five years. Ms. Semo began her federal government career as a Department of Justice trial attorney and later senior counsel in the Federal Programs Branch, Civil Division, from 1991 to 1999, and from 1988 to 1991 worked as an associate at Hopkins & Sutter in Washington, D.C.
Ms. Semo holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Government and Politics from the University of Maryland, College Park, and a Juris Doctor degree from Georgetown University Law School; she is licensed in the District of Columbia and Maryland.
Deputy Executive Director and Legal Director, Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press
Katie Townsend (@katie_rcfp) is Deputy Executive Director and Legal Director at the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press (www.rcfp.org), a nonprofit organization based in Washington, D.C. She oversees the litigation, amicus, and other legal work of Reporters Committee attorneys, and represents the Reporters Committee, news organizations, and individual journalists, including documentary filmmakers, in court access, freedom of information, and other First Amendment and press freedom matters.
Prior to joining the Reporters Committee as its first Litigation Director in 2014, Ms. Townsend was an associate in the Los Angeles office of Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP, where her practice focused on media and entertainment litigation. She was recognized in 2015 as a Washington, D.C. “Rising Star” by The National Law Journal and, in 2015, was named one of the “Next Gen – Hollywood’s Up-and-Coming Execs 35 and Under” by the Hollywood Reporter. She is a Fellow of the American Bar Foundation and serves on the International Documentary Association’s Enterprise Documentary Fund Advisory Committee.
Ms. Townsend is a 2007 graduate of the University of Virginia School of Law, where she was a member of the editorial board of the Virginia Law Review. She graduated summa cum laude from the University of Florida in 2004 with a B.A. in English and a B.S. in broadcast journalism.
Deputy Secretary of Agriculture, U.S. Department of Agriculture
Judge Stephen Alexander Vaden was appointed as the Deputy Secretary of the U.S. Department of Agriculture on July 7, 2025. Alongside Secretary Brooke L. Rollins, Deputy Secretary Vaden leads the Department’s operations and implements policies that support America’s food and farm systems. A native of Union City, Tennessee, Deputy Secretary Vaden brings expertise in agricultural policy, law, and rural development. Previously, he served as a judge on the U.S. Court of International Trade and as General Counsel of USDA. Throughout Deputy Secretary Vaden’s time as General Counsel, he led successful Supreme Court litigation, advanced regulatory reform, and supported the implementation of the 2018 Farm Bill. He is a graduate of Yale Law School and Vanderbilt University. A public servant with strong agricultural roots, Deputy Secretary Vaden is committed to revitalizing rural America and ensuring an abundant, affordable, and safe U.S. food supply.
Counsel, Cause of Action Institute
Ryan P. Mulvey has worked as policy counsel at Americans for Prosperity Foundation since December 2019. He previously worked as Counsel as Cause of Action Institute (2013-2019) and continues to volunteer in that position. Ryan’s practice touches on various aspects of government oversight, civic engagement, and administrative and constitutional law. He regularly lectures on government transparency matters and litigates cases under the Freedom of Information Act and Administrative Procedure Act. Ryan has helped to prosecute state public records requests, too, and provided amicus support at various levels of state and federal courts, including the Supreme Court, on various matters. As a policy expert, he regularly advises congressional staff about FOIA reform and cutting-edge transparency issues.
Ryan was graduated from the University of San Diego (2010) summa cum laude with an honors degree in history and political science. He earned his JD and MA in philosophy from Boston University (2013). While a law student, Ryan completed internships at the Cato Institute’s Center for Constitutional Studies, as well as the Office of the General Counsel of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston. He served as Executive Editor for Notes and Comments at the Review of Banking & Financial Law and worked as a research assistant for the second revised edition of the Heritage Foundation’s Guide to the Constitution (2014).
Ryan is admitted to the practice of law in New York State, the District of Columbia, and the Commonwealth of Virginia. In addition to his work at AFPF, Ryan is the president of the American Society of Access Professionals and a contributor at FOIA Advisor.
Deputy Counsel, the President
Gary currently is the Deputy Counsel to the President. He was previously a partner at the Dhillon Law Group and worked at the Department of the Interior and Federal Election Commission. He is a native of Virginia, and earned his B.A. and J.D. from the University of Virginia.
Director, Office of Government Information Services, United States National Archives and Records Administration
In December 2016, Alina M. Semo became the Director of the Office of Government Information Services (OGIS), the Federal Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) ombudsman’s office, which is part of the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).
Prior to joining OGIS, Ms. Semo served as the Director of Litigation in NARA's Office of General Counsel for two and a half years. Before coming to NARA, Ms. Semo led the FOIA Litigation Unit in the Office of the General Counsel at the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for over ten years, and also served as an Assistant General Counsel in the Litigation Branch for nearly five years. Ms. Semo began her federal government career as a Department of Justice trial attorney and later senior counsel in the Federal Programs Branch, Civil Division, from 1991 to 1999, and from 1988 to 1991 worked as an associate at Hopkins & Sutter in Washington, D.C.
Ms. Semo holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Government and Politics from the University of Maryland, College Park, and a Juris Doctor degree from Georgetown University Law School; she is licensed in the District of Columbia and Maryland.
Deputy Executive Director and Legal Director, Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press
Katie Townsend (@katie_rcfp) is Deputy Executive Director and Legal Director at the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press (www.rcfp.org), a nonprofit organization based in Washington, D.C. She oversees the litigation, amicus, and other legal work of Reporters Committee attorneys, and represents the Reporters Committee, news organizations, and individual journalists, including documentary filmmakers, in court access, freedom of information, and other First Amendment and press freedom matters.
Prior to joining the Reporters Committee as its first Litigation Director in 2014, Ms. Townsend was an associate in the Los Angeles office of Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP, where her practice focused on media and entertainment litigation. She was recognized in 2015 as a Washington, D.C. “Rising Star” by The National Law Journal and, in 2015, was named one of the “Next Gen – Hollywood’s Up-and-Coming Execs 35 and Under” by the Hollywood Reporter. She is a Fellow of the American Bar Foundation and serves on the International Documentary Association’s Enterprise Documentary Fund Advisory Committee.
Ms. Townsend is a 2007 graduate of the University of Virginia School of Law, where she was a member of the editorial board of the Virginia Law Review. She graduated summa cum laude from the University of Florida in 2004 with a B.A. in English and a B.S. in broadcast journalism.
Deputy Secretary of Agriculture, U.S. Department of Agriculture
Judge Stephen Alexander Vaden was appointed as the Deputy Secretary of the U.S. Department of Agriculture on July 7, 2025. Alongside Secretary Brooke L. Rollins, Deputy Secretary Vaden leads the Department’s operations and implements policies that support America’s food and farm systems. A native of Union City, Tennessee, Deputy Secretary Vaden brings expertise in agricultural policy, law, and rural development. Previously, he served as a judge on the U.S. Court of International Trade and as General Counsel of USDA. Throughout Deputy Secretary Vaden’s time as General Counsel, he led successful Supreme Court litigation, advanced regulatory reform, and supported the implementation of the 2018 Farm Bill. He is a graduate of Yale Law School and Vanderbilt University. A public servant with strong agricultural roots, Deputy Secretary Vaden is committed to revitalizing rural America and ensuring an abundant, affordable, and safe U.S. food supply.
Counsel, Cause of Action Institute
Ryan P. Mulvey has worked as policy counsel at Americans for Prosperity Foundation since December 2019. He previously worked as Counsel as Cause of Action Institute (2013-2019) and continues to volunteer in that position. Ryan’s practice touches on various aspects of government oversight, civic engagement, and administrative and constitutional law. He regularly lectures on government transparency matters and litigates cases under the Freedom of Information Act and Administrative Procedure Act. Ryan has helped to prosecute state public records requests, too, and provided amicus support at various levels of state and federal courts, including the Supreme Court, on various matters. As a policy expert, he regularly advises congressional staff about FOIA reform and cutting-edge transparency issues.
Ryan was graduated from the University of San Diego (2010) summa cum laude with an honors degree in history and political science. He earned his JD and MA in philosophy from Boston University (2013). While a law student, Ryan completed internships at the Cato Institute’s Center for Constitutional Studies, as well as the Office of the General Counsel of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston. He served as Executive Editor for Notes and Comments at the Review of Banking & Financial Law and worked as a research assistant for the second revised edition of the Heritage Foundation’s Guide to the Constitution (2014).
Ryan is admitted to the practice of law in New York State, the District of Columbia, and the Commonwealth of Virginia. In addition to his work at AFPF, Ryan is the president of the American Society of Access Professionals and a contributor at FOIA Advisor.
Off the Record? The Constitutionality of the Presidential Records Act
Michael J. Edney, Christopher Fonzone, Zack Smith
For nearly fifty years, the Presidential Records Act has governed the preservation, ownership, and eventual...
Loper Bright Fallout for SEC Rulemaking?
Jan Folena, Margaret A. Little, Michael Piwowar
In an unprecedented action, the SEC in July dismissed with prejudice a pending enforcement case...
7 Minute Presentations of Works in Progress Panel 2-C
New Orleans, LAPanel: Originalism, Birthright Citizenship and the 14th Amendment
J. Joel Alicea, Amanda Frost, Kurt T. Lash, Keith E. Whittington, Ilan Wurman
Prof. Amanda Frost, David Lurton Massee, Jr., Professor of Law, Director, Immigration, Migration and Human Rights...
27th Annual Faculty Conference
New Orleans, LATopics
How the New Administration Can Increase White House Transparency and Accountability
The outgoing Biden administration has admirably made and followed through on some public commitments to transparency and...
Topics
Virginia Tax-Exempt Government-Services Association Tries to Avoid Open-Records Law
Public school districts are accountable to the people. And when private citizens ask for their...
Topics
The Origins of the 2011 Dear Colleague Letter on Campus Sexual Assault
Six years ago, I filed a FOIA request for various documents relating to the origin...
$64,000 Questions — Obtaining Information from the Executive Branch
Gary Lawkowski, Alina M. Semo, Katie Townsend, Stephen Alexander Vaden, Ryan Patrick Mulvey
We’ve grown accustomed to learning about government actions only because an enterprising person or group...
$64,000 Questions — Obtaining Information from the Executive Branch
Gary Lawkowski, Alina M. Semo, Katie Townsend, Stephen Alexander Vaden, Ryan Patrick Mulvey
We’ve grown accustomed to learning about government actions only because an enterprising person or group...